INTRODUCTION TO MARCEL MULE'S INTERVIEW
For those who are curious: Joe Viola and I were in France attending
a gathering of saxophonists in Que Bong, a town about 50 miles west
of Paris. Following this we headed into Paris by train and ultimately
took the bullet train from Paris to the South of France. In Marsais,
France we rented a car and proceeded to Marcel’s home in Sanary, France.
As we approached Marcel’s home around 1 p.m. Joe and I were both excited
and eager to meet him. Marcel was working in his front yard pulling
up weeds when he spotted us and came to welcome his dear friend Joe
Viola. Joe introduced me and we chatted and laughed as we walked into
Marcel’s home.
During the course of the afternoon I was struck by the fact that the
only thing noticeable concerning the saxophone in Marcel’s life was
a large framed remembrance, all signed by fans, from the First World
Saxophone Congress in Chicago. As the afternoon wore on I asked Marcel
if he ever played the saxophone anymore. He spoke politely but forcefully
that he did not. He hadn’t touched the instrument in many years and
his last saxophone was currently store under his bed.
After chatting with Marcel, and his wife Polette, Joe and I went out
on Marcel’s front porch and visited endlessly. He spoke English well
and we conversed in English. As a side note, I had known Joe Viola
for many years and considered him a good friend. I could see the pleasure
Joe was experiencing by being with Marcel. Both men really hit it
of and enjoyed each other’s company. Interestingly, throughout much
of the taping there was a small dove cooing away on top of Marcel’s
porch roof.
As a final note, we ended our day by eating a wonderful meal that
Polette Mule had prepared. This was around 7:30 that evening. I was
struck by the copious amounts of wine sitting on the dinner table
in bottles. Marcel enjoyed wine and bread, and I might add so did
we. We ate, drank wine, and continued to break bread for what seemed
an eternity. I was really overwhelmed by it all as the conversation
and laughter continued. It was a day I will remember forever, my visit
to Marcel Mule’s house in Sanary, France.
Marcel, let’s start with La musique de la Guarde Républicaine Band
experience beginning in 1923 and how it affected your career early
on. You were a part of this band for thirteen years. Recruitment
was always done by competitions, which means where there is one place
about 20 to 25 musicians compete for this place. As a result the level
of the artists is very high and it is a grouping in which one must
improve and develop one’s musicality. For a saxophonist, for example,
it was a chosen milieu, since saxophones do no participate in an orchestra,
so this presents an excellent opportunity, a select surrounding, and
so the music of the Guarde allows one to attain a higher level of
achievement and to develop one’s talent. I was rather young when I
joined the Guarde and I received many benefits from the artistic point
of view.
Out of your experience with the Guarde Républicaine Band grew a
saxophone quartet as a formal medium. If not the first format saxophone
quartet this was certainly one of the earliest ones. I wasn’t
the only one to have the idea for this quartet. The man to played
baritone, Georges Chauvet, along with me, we created this quartet
for there was none in existence. We wanted to create a provisionary
repertoire to start an interesting group. First of all I will name
Georges Chauvet, then a colleague from the Guarde whose name was René
Chaligné who played alto, and the tenor player was Hippolyte Poimboeuf.
That was the group, which was formed in 1928.
The four of us played together. We took music, which was already in
existence. There was nothing written for the instrument. We took little
popular pieces that the public liked and we made up programs that
were interesting and had a new sound. Those pieces were known, but
they sounded different with the saxophone and the public liked it.
That’s how we began and later composers began writing for the saxophone
since they saw our group was successful. But at first we played only
transcriptions.
Talk about the interest that composers took in the saxophone.
They heard our quartet and the new sound interested them. They wrote
for our group because they wanted to write for a new group for a new
sound. Glazounov wrote a great piece for us. We met him through a
Russian composer who liked the saxophone. His name was Achuman but
he wasn’t very well known. He convinced Glazounov to write for us
and to take an interest in us.
The other composers, like Bozza and Vellones, transcribed pieces they
had written for piano, notably a suite called In The Garden of the
Wild Beasts that Vellones had written for his children. He wrote this
music for a saxophone quartet. It was one of the first pieces we played
outside of transcriptions. It was a transcription of a piano piece
but the author wanted to adapt it for a saxophone quartet. Bozza is
another story.
Much later we went to Italy, in 1937, and we went to Rome. They invited
us to the Villa Medici where they hold the French Prize of Rome, and
Eugene Bozza and Gabriel Pierne were there. Let me think if there
were many more composers who wrote for me. No, I think they were the
only two and we gave a little recital at the Villa Medici. Following
that they wrote some pieces for us. There might have been others but
they were the principal ones. That’s how it happened.
There was also Claude Rascal who wrote for the saxophone, but who
wrote at first for the saxophone with piano, and then for the quartet.
All these young composers wrote for the quartet. I am trying to think
of others. There was Rene Chaland also, names like that but they were
not well known composers and we did not meet them at the Villa Medici.
Gabriel Pierne was one of the composers who were very interested in
the saxophone. He had written for us a variation on a popular song
that was very successful. We played it all over France and Europe
and it was very well received. Gabriel Pierne was a remarkable musician.
We owe him a lot. He not only wrote for the quartet he also included
in the composition Colone a great part for the saxophone. He was a
benefactor of the instrument.
What do you think about some of the new music being written for
saxophone? Particularly in recent years. I know many pieces that
have been written for saxophone quartets. Some have value, others
less. If we talk about modern music I’d have to say that I don’t know
much about this music. First of all often in this type of music there
is only one word that describes it and that is contemporary because
this music is often a lot of noise for nothing. Many times the notes
are not even written down. From what I have heard, there hasn’t been
much written for saxophone quartets these past few years. The composers
have changed recently and they orient themselves towards things that
are less interesting. I personally don’t like them, that’s all.
Your appointment to teach saxophone at the Paris Conservatory in
1942 must have been an exciting time in your life. You stayed there
for 26 years until your retirement in 1968. What inspired them to
re-establish the saxophone at the Paris Conservatory? It’s very
easy because this class had been suppressed since 1870. It was Adolphe
Sax who had been professor until 1870 and he was the one who suppressed
the class. It appears that it was lacking in credit at that time.
It was reestablished in 1942 because there was a period in which the
saxophone was relegated to use in military music, principally in the
fanfares, in harmonies, in the provinces especially. But between 1925
or 1926 and 1942 were able to establish that the saxophone was capable
of doing other things. It was capable of playing an important part
in the orchestra. Since I was in the Guarde, when there was a piece
that required the saxophone I was the one they called upon to play.
I suppose the liked my way of playing many composers became interested
in writing for the saxophone.
Since there were many pieces being written for the saxophone it was
decided to begin a class at the Conservatory. I would see Mr. Claude
Delvaincour, who was director of the Conservatory of Versailles, every
year at juries for the students of the Versailles Conservatory. And
every year we would talk about the possibility of having this class
at the Conservatory; that it would be very good to have considering
the development of the instrument in the symphonic domain.
The creation of this class was a culmination of everything that had
happened in the previous fifteen years or so. The saxophone had made
itself heard in a milieu where we weren’t used to hearing it, for
previously it had been considered only as an instrument for dancing
and for jazz music. It has its place for jazz music, but we discovered
that it could do other things. For example, there were trumpet players
who played in jazz groups and who could also participate in a symphonic
orchestra. It was the same for the clarinet, for the trombone; those
instruments had their place in the jazz band but could also participate
in a symphonic orchestra. However, we felt it was possible for the
saxophone too.
Claude Delvaincour, that I mentioned earlier, came to the director
of the Paris Conservatory one day, and since he had often talked about
the possibility of this class, that is how the saxophone class was
established. When I saw him after his talk with the director, he said
that was the first thing the director would do to establish the saxophone
class. That was in 1942, and he kept his word. It opened up the chance
for students to develop what they were doing. There was the spirit
of competition because the saxophone was treated like all other instruments
at the Conservatory. That’s how it happened. I was named professor
because Claude Delvaincour knew me and the composers who were on the
council knew me also. I was in a good position because I had a part
in the creation of the class.
As a teacher of saxophone what qualities in a student’s evolution
did you emphasize the most? Good tone quality is the most important
thing to me. As long as I was at the Conservatory I tried to impress
this on my students. I myself had evolved; had changed. I think I
evolved for the better. Also, because the one mostly responsible for
my playing the saxophone was my father. My father was an amateur saxophonist
but he played remarkably. He played as they did at that time, but
he had trained me to pay attention to the tone quality so that it
would be pleasant to hear a velvety sound. Later on I modified my
sound but I always strove to keep a velvety sound quality and I added
an expressive element. This is what caused the ascension of this instrument.
I practiced what they were practicing on the string instruments; that
is expression by means of vibrato. It was a calculated vibrato, which
had to be assimilated to the orchestra. It required a different sound
than a jazz band. In the jazz band there was some vibrato, but it
was a little exaggerated and it would not have conformed to symphonic
music. So I tried to moderate my vibrato. Over the years I was able
to create a sound that really gave value to this instrument. I was
the one who was there but I always say it could just as well have
been another, but it was me.
Afterwards, I asked my students strive for that tone and as the years
passed other professors picked up on it and also worked off the cultivation
of the tone; a good quality tone, an expressive tone, so that the
saxophone would be one of the most expressive instruments in the entire
orchestra and rival the strings. As one critic told me at the time
the critic was Emile Villarose, when talking about the saxophone he
described it as the violoncello of the brass. That was saying it all.
He appreciated the expressiveness that could be achieved with the
instrument. Thus, one must not be surprised that I strove to attain
this with my students and I did attain it.
By disciplining the expression, by giving them all the elements, by
listening to them assiduously, by making their fellow musicians listen
to them, there was an ambiance in which one tone was formed. That’s
very important to me for that’s what the instrument should be used
for. And it should continue to be used this way. When the saxophone
is used nowadays it isn’t always used in a happy way, it isn’t always
used in an expressive way, as other instruments are. It was only for
a few years that composers wrote wonderful things for us. They are
not composers known worldwide but they are wonderful composers. So,
that’s our repertoire.
It’s too bad that with the turning of contemporary music has taken
expression is no longer necessary. One doesn’t need expression to
make noise. But at first that was what it was to maintain expression
in one’s music. That was what was known as the French School of saxophone.
I have had students form all over the world. I have had Americans
who play marvelously, I have had Japanese, people from all nations
and it is continuing. That was my goal, for the tone to be the most
important thing.
You used only the alto saxophone in your teaching at the Paris
Conservatory. Why did you limit it to just the alto? It appears
surprising because there are three other principal saxophones and
there are seven in all from the bass to the sopranino. But it posed
a problem; a certain continuity was necessary. We couldn’t use pieces
that were made for a sopranino, a tenor, etc., so I thought the alto
was sufficient. If one can play the alto one can play the others very
well too. It’s a question of practice and of specialization. I have
had students who have won the first prize on alto and then have player
a tenor. The soprano is a little different, and also the baritone.
But if one can play alto, and has a good tone and accuracy, it only
takes a couple weeks of practice to get used to the others. It’s probably
easier for a saxophone player to switch saxophones than for a clarinetist
to play a bass clarinet.
We used only the alto because it simplified teaching. We would have
had to bring the alto saxophone on day, the tenor another day, the
baritone another. It’s also expensive if the student has to buy all
four instruments. That’s a point that must be considered too. And
the alto has been written for the most by composers. It is the alto
that has been used the most in an orchestra. The soprano has also
been used but for a long time we hesitated to use the soprano because
it was played very badly. But now there is less danger of that. I
think it is sufficient to practice on the alto.
When you award a first prize in saxophone to a student, what do you
look for from the recipient? What I look for in them is to make
the instrument valued. As I said before, in a lot of music today expressiveness
is not too important, so they are interested in teaching music. The
conservatory has allowed us to have about 100 teachers who have classes
that are full with about 25 students or more. When I meet a former
student who teaches and I asked him how many students he has. He always
answers 25, 28, a rather good number. They are people who make music
with the saxophone, like it’s made with other instruments. I had one
student who wanted to play jazz especially. He went to one of my former
students for lessons and my student converted him and he started playing
symphonic saxophone music. Even those who haven’t won a prize in saxophone,
they are amateurs and happy to play because they like the expressive
sounds they produce.
You are held in very high esteem by many of your fans and admirers
around the world. What do you say to you many fans that have admired
you and respected what you did for the saxophone? I hope that
the students of my students attain the same tradition thanks to the
vigilance and competency of my students. It perpetuates itself, this
method of playing an instrument. I hear it in exams, and I am happy
to hear a remarkable tone quality and the technique is prodigious.
They attain sounds that are very difficult, not always musical, but
they are asked to do that.
Some former students have turned to contemporary music but that doesn’t
stop them from playing well. I know one group in particular, not to
mention names and give them publicity, but they play perhaps one contemporary
work and the rest if traditional. I continue to say that contemporary
music adds nothing to the playing of the saxophone, and perhaps the
saxophone adds nothing to contemporary music either. If contemporary
music continues this way perhaps the instruments will change, perhaps
there will be other. We hear unbelievable things; noise making. We
don’t hear music. Are they kidding? It sounds like laughter: ha, ha,
ha, ha, etc. There was another one that sounded like sneezing. For
three minutes we heard ah-choo, ah-choo, etc. I heard it on a radio
station that specializes in music, French music. It’s on at 11:00
at night. I think its blasphemy to present that as music. I sincerely
hope there will be a turnaround someday. One must hope.
On February 4, 1958, you performed Ibert’s Chamber Music for Saxophone
and Orchestra, and Tomasi’s Ballade for Saxophone and Orchestra, with
the Boston Symphony under the baton of Charles Munch. Tell us about
this experience. I like these two pieces very much. The piece
by Ibert is very well constructed and very melodic. Tomasi’s music
is also very interesting. I had played Ibert’s work often in Paris,
notably with Charles Munch. Since Charles was the leader of the Boston
Symphony Orchestra he asked me to play Ibert’s Concertina. I like
it very much also. I think the piece shows off the value of the instrument
and requires a great deal of virtuosity. It’s sort of like a contemporary
Mozart. It’s neat in design and very moving.
One day I was with Jacques Ibert to do music for a film. There were
these first two bars of an arietta he had used to express sorrow as
background music for the film. We started over many times because
it didn’t come out right. It wasn’t close enough to the microphone.
Finally, he came to the booth where they were recording and was finally
satisfied. When he had written it he was thinking of something moving
and he had heard that come through in the music. So, the last movement
requires a lot of rhythm, equality, and a lot of fantasy. It’s a very
lively happy piece. He wrote a lot of happy music, not too much sad
music. He’s an excellent composer and he really knew how to write
music. So this is one of the reasons I liked to play Ibert’s music
and it was always well received by the public.
Now, Tomasi was an excellent musician. He worked a lot and he didn’t
have much time to compose. If he had more time he might have composed
a lot more works. One day I was with him to do some background music
for a stage play and there was a saxophone in the orchestra. That
happened a lot before the war in the 1930s, 1935-1936 around there.
And he said to me, because he was an old friend of mine, and he spoke
with southern French accent, “I am going to write a ballad.” Then
he called me a few months later and said he had written it. I played
it and found it very seductive. I also had my students’ play it and
I found an interest in it that I hadn’t found in playing it myself.
You have to put yourself into the character of the piece because the
music expresses the sadness of the life of a clown. It’s very descriptive.
He had written notations that one must imagine the clown along the
banks of the Seine, who is gesturing to amuse the public. He chose
an English theme, which he described as, “long and phlegmatic.” A
clown walks along the Seine at night and thinks about everything in
his life that is not amusing. It’s a little drama. It takes the form
of a blues, which was invented by black musicians, and it’s sad music.
He used that so that the clown’s feelings of sadness grow and grow,
and at the end it explodes. At the end the clown cries as he walks
along the Seine. The legend of the piece says that this despair is
shown in a sonorous mass of loud noise, but harmonious, not like we
hear these days. Finally the clown resigns himself to continue to
make the public laugh.
As I played it I put myself into the story and imagined it and the
characters. I always liked that work for that reason. Some critics
thought it was too light, but I didn’t think so. I find it very descriptive,
and that’s why I chose it.
You were presented with the French Chevalier de la legion d’honneur
in 1958 for “outstanding contributions to his country.” How did you
feel about this honor? My becoming a member of the Chevalier de
la legion d’honneur (legend of honor) was rather curious because the
director of the conservatory suggested my name, and also because I
played in the Guarde, the director of the Guarde suggested my name.
And the first one that succeeded in having me chosen was the leader
of the Guarde. The leader of the Guarde decorated me, and later on
when I saw the director of the Conservatory he said to me, “I was
too late, and you have already been decorated.”
I don’t know of other saxophonists who have ever received the award.
It was a sort of reward to someone who had played all over the world.
I have never sought such decorations and some people refuse to be
decorated, but I didn’t want to refuse because it was not I that was
being decorated, but all saxophonists, all my students. They continue
participating in making the instrument, and the way it was played
by my student and me. Other musicians have been decorated also; oboe
players, violinists, etc., but I think I am the only saxophonist who
every received it.
Was your father present at the presentation? He was still living,
but I didn’t have him come because he was very emotional, and he had
an accident at another concert when he has seen his grandson conduct
the orchestra and he had an attack. I would have like him to be there
and see me receive the decoration, but I was afraid he would have
another attack, so I told him not to come. But he knew about it.
Tell us about soloing on the saxophone. I think the first thing
is for the public to realize the possibilities of the instrument.
That’s why I deplore the fact that it is used in performances that
are not at all artistic. I think it is more difficult to play a concerto
of Mozart’s than a caprice by Paganini. It’s not the same degree of
difficulty. I think a violinist who plays Mozart has much more difficulty
than one who plays Paganini. There isn’t as much perfection demanded
than for a piece by Mozart.
For we saxophone players, I think we have to convince the public that
it’s an instrument that can create an emotion. I don’t have a lot
of solo concerts and people have told me that they didn’t know the
saxophone could sound like that. It’s because they are used to hearing
the saxophone in a dance orchestra.
The quartet had also done a lot of tours and they have played for
a lot of young people, and they are surprised too. They asked us after
each concert how we could express so much emotion with this instrument
that they were not used to hearing played in this way. That was my
goal, our goal, to have the instrument known for its artistic possibilities.
The day when the saxophone class was re-established at the Paris Conservatory
there were important composers such Honneiller who said, “the saxophone
finally had its title of nobility, that it had arrived at the same
level as the other instrument, that it was accepted at the house of
music, the conservatory.” The conservatory must conserve the magnificent
traditions that have been created throughout the centuries, the succession
of genius composers that will never disappear. Unfortunately, today
we have no composers equal to them, but we have honorable works, and
if they were played more often they would be well received. Every
time they have been played, if the works were agreeable to hear, they
have been well received and we have been asked why.
Could you talk about vibrato? It’s no secret that from when
the instrument was created, until the advent of jazz, it was played
without vibrato. There were some saxophonists who played admirably,
as did my father, which I mentioned before. I tried to play as he
did. I arrived in Paris and I heard people playing with vibrato, but
it was a vibrato I found to be atrocious. It was ugly. I thought it
sounded like a goat. I was playing jazz, also. I had been trained
in a military band, but in order to make money I also played some
jazz. I had to sound like that too, but I tried to play jazz with
sounds that pleased me. At that time it wasn’t like it is now. People
danced to jazz, waltzes, etc., and I played in dance bands.
I was employed by a black man at the Ritz Hotel in Paris, and he hired
me for my sonority; a black man hired me for my sonority, that’s rather
curious. When he hired me for a party outside the Ritz he insisted
that I play with him. I evolved in that way, but one day when I was
playing at the comic opera, I was playing Vertel. That’s about all
there was. One day, I think it was in 1929, there was a modern ballet;
they had a fox trot, a waltz, a blues, and in that blues there was
a part for a saxophone and it was written on the music “very expressive,
with vibrato.” Since I was at the rehearsal, the director said to
me, “it’s written it should be played expressively, with vibrato,
but here I don’t think it should be played the same way as in jazz.”
I said I agree, so I did it moderately because I was afraid the others
would say, “What does he think he is doing?” But when I played it
the other musicians raised their heads looking to see who was playing
like that, and since then I saw that it was very well received and
I continued to play that with even with a classical orchestra. I even
played that way in the Guarde, and it was this manner of playing with
vibrato, that brought me success.
They considered me a master because I had that vibrato sound. However,
vibrato cannot be improvised. I taught it to my students in a very
disciplined manner. They had to keep a certain tempo, a certain speed,
and after awhile it becomes a habit. If one has a habit of a certain
speed, it lasts. That’s the story of how vibrato started in the instrument
when I was at the comic opera. If someone else had been there things
might have gone differently, but it was me and I wanted the saxophone
to be known as an instrument. I left jazz to others and I wanted to
be known as a classical saxophonist.
The quartet was another innovation. During the years I was at the
Conservatory I had remarkable students, and for twenty years after
that I have heard the students of my successor Daniel Deffayet, who
has also trained excellent musicians. Here’s an anecdote: Daniel Deffayet
and I were received one day at the town hall of Nuremberg and the
burgomaster, the one who acts as mayor said, “I was the father of
the saxophone.” I said that no, I was rather the grandfather because
now it is the students of my students who are playing and they play
very well.
There are many young people being trained now who are very good and
when they come to Paris they have a great sound. What I deplore is
the music that is being written now. It isn’t useful and that’s too
bad.
What pieces in the repertoire stand out in your mind? It’s
difficult to give a preference to a work among all that has been written.
Before, I mentioned Ibert and Tomasi. Tomasi also wrote a very good
concerto. Those were very good! They had a lot of talent. I also heard
good work by Eugene Bozza, and Gabriel Pierne who wrote for the quartet.
And Glazounov, who was an incontestable master who wrote a piece for
quartet that lasts a quarter of an hour. He said he wanted to try
something different, to express different things with the instrument,
and he wrote a very nice work. It’s a little bit too long but he looked
for different sounds.
Other composers, like Paul Bonneau who played saxophone himself a
little, and others like those saw at the Villa Medici, which I mentioned
earlier. I have forgotten all the names, and some who wrote pieces
for films like Marice Perrier aren’t very well known. But they used
the saxophone for their music in films. Jacque Ibert used it in an
opera ballet called the Errant Knight, Don Quiote, and he included
some parts for saxophone that were very nice to play and hear. Honeager
also used the saxophone in his music in Joan of Arc for example. And
we mustn’t forget Daris Milaud who did the Creation of the World back
in the 1920s. That’s one of the first things I played with him. Florence
Mit also wrote a remarkable piece for the quartet. I mentioned Delonne
before, who was an excellent composer. It was a different genre of
music, but excellent all the same.
At the conservatory there were many successes. For example Janine
Ruef, who is an excellent musician, wrote for competitions and she
wrote a concerto. Claude Pascal wrote a remarkable sonatina. There
has been a long line of musicians who have done a lot for the instrument.
I forget them all but Glazounov was perhaps the master, but others
also have their value. There is one, maybe two that we regret. There
was Debussy who wrote a rhapsody, but it didn’t like the instrument
very much, I’m afraid. He didn’t like the way it was played then.
Maybe if he heard they way it is played now he would have made a quartet
himself. Who knows? He may have made a quartet that would have been
as well known as the one he created for strings. Anyway, there’s Debussy
and there’s Ravel. Ravel created a few solos for us in Bolero. At
the end of his life he became ill, seriously ill, but to years before
his death he had promised to write something for us for the quartet.
I knew him well as I had seen him a lot for Bolero performances but
he became ill and that was it. I regret it because he probably would
have succeeded in doing something for us.
Can we talk about the Mark VI Selmer saxophone, which you were
helpful in creating? It was the result of many years of research.
I worked at the Selmer factory and I was always trying to improve
the instruments. When I started there the instruments were good, but
we were always trying to improve them. Those who succeeded me have
also improved them and the fabrication has improved a lot. We can
always make improvements.
The Mark VI was the result of a lot of research. It can be discouraging
at times because we think we have made an improvement in one part
of the instrument, but it changes another part. But a respectable
house like Selmer continues to try and not to become discouraged.
They continued to search with me the top, the bottom, and the middle.
We worked for a long time and we made progress. It appears that they
are still making progress. So, that’s what happened.
What is the French School of saxophone playing? Yes, it exists
for the reasons I gave you. I had heard American saxophonists, and
there were good saxophonists before me. But they weren’t oriented
towards true classical music. So, in that way we could say there is
a French School because we had the instrument compete for a place
in the orchestra along with the other instruments. It’s different
than people who play popular light music. We try to play more serious
works. It was a bold attempt to permit an instrument that was rather
neglected to attain its title of nobility. That is the French School.
One could say, since I was the one at the conservatory, that it is
my school. Not to be pretentious, but the students that I have had
also try to defend a good cause and what I consider to be a good cause.
The French School? It’s curious. In 1970 there was a competition in
Geneva, and at the second contest I was no longer at the conservatory.
It was my successor (Daniel Deffayet) who attended and it was found
that the students who came from the Paris Conservatory, some had been
my students, weren’t very outstanding that year. They played well,
but they weren’t brilliant. There were some students from the United
States who played better. So, the next day in the newspaper they were
talking about a French School and an American School. That was rather
amusing because the American School consisted of two or three saxophonists
that I had as students. They were calling that the American School.
It wasn’t an American school really. It was an artistic school.
In the United States you have some very good players. I have been
lucky enough to have some as students. They perhaps played in a slightly
different way. It’s like another language. It’s true. There are some
American songs that are great and when they are sung in French they
don’t sound the same. Each country has it’s own pronunciation; it’s
own school. It’s not really a school, but it comes from what is sung
or played there. So, the French School, I am in part responsible for
it. I think they talk about it in America, but I don’t think they
should be catalogued that way by country. There are some very good
players in the United States. I know a lot of them. I have listened
to a lot of them.
What about young saxophonists just starting out? Well, that will
depend on the type of chances they will have to play. If they are
interested like some are in contemporary music (even though I think
it doesn’t give enough value to the instrument), that’s what they
like to play. If they don’t play that they don’t play anything. There
is a small repertoire they can play. If that is what they like, and
we have contrary ideas when we discuss something, I tell them that
isn’t the best use of the instrument. And if they continue along those
lines there will no longer be any students in the classes. There are
at least 100 teachers in France, there are many in the United States,
in Spain, in Italy, in Switzerland, in Belgium, in England; there
are a lot of qualified teachers all over the world who teach good
music. So once in a while if they choose to play a contemporary piece
that’s all right. But I don’t like it when they play only that. I
can’t understand it.
What have you thought about the saxophone in your retirement years?
You must have developed a new perspective. When I see former students
we discuss contemporary music, and when I see them really involved
in it we discuss it. I ask them not to forget what they learned. There
was one who became involved in it and he sent me a compact disk and
asked me to listen to it. But he knew I wouldn’t like it. I don’t
approve of it. The composers who write this music are talented, and
they know what they are doing. That’s the kind of music they like.
When I see a former student we talk it over and say what we think.
A few days ago I saw Daniel Deffayet, my successor, and he tried and
succeeded in having his students play this music because that is what
is requested in the competitions. They were asked to play such things.
They have to play them. It’s the same for all the instruments. For
the flute, for example, to be able to teach the person must have a
certificate of aptitude and there is a piece of contemporary music
to be played, whether you play the flute, clarinet, any instrument.
Perhaps only the piano is exempt from it. They are lucky.
There are very few who like to play this music. Right now it is the
men of contemporary music who are in command. At the ministry there
are people who subsidize this type of music. The radio station paid
for the scherzo of sneezing and the rondo of laughter, for example.
They are paid for by people who don’t hear what they are requesting.
If they heard it I don’t know if they would like. Perhaps it’s possible.
Especially in contemporary music, we have the impression of something
that is falling or is dripping, or that is being hammered. That’s
the new thing now. It’s no longer cymbals but hammers and water dripping.
That’s the new music. But I don’t accept it. It’s not for me. I’m
sure nobody cares that I don’t like it, but that’s my opinion. So
the one I was talking about I think he likes it. The young people
like it. I guess I can’t understand it. They are trying to please
certain people, but I’m not sure of their taste. §
Editor’s Note
There aren’t enough words in the English language to adequately thank
Eugene Rousseau for allowing us to utilize photos from his book titled
Marcel Mule: His Life And The Saxophone. Rousseau's book helped guide
many of the finer points of historical information in my interview text,
such as dates, people, and places.
I also thank Eugene Rousseau, Fred Hemke, Paul Brodie, and Marshall
Taylor for recently emailing me me their thoughts on Marcel Mule. It
was our intention to include these essays on Marcel in this issue of
Saxophone Journal. Then suddenly, and quite unexpected, I discovered
one printed copy of an English translation from my interview with Marcel
Mule done at his home in 1990. After several days of trying to make
up my mind I opted to publish this exclusive, and final interview with
Marcel Mule.
There are no resources available on the internet covering the life of
this major figure of the saxophone world from the 20th century. In view
of this, I’ve decided to put the writings from Eugene Rousseau, Fred
Hemke, Paul Brodie, and Marshall Taylor in a webpage devoted solely
to Marcel Mule. There are many other interesting aspects of Marcel's
life.
It is my intent to add materials this website and make it available
to everyone wanting to do research on Marcel Mule. If you have things
to add please email me at: marcelmule@dornpub.com To view our webpage
dedicated to Marcel Mule, and see additional resources about him, go
to: http://www.dornpub.com/saxophonejournal/marcelmule.html
Finally, I’d like to thank the dove on Marcel’s porch
roof for touching the day Marcel Mule and I spoke. We both laughed
when we heard the dove.
Marcel Mule
published in MayJune 2002 Saxophone Journal
Vol. 26, No. 5
© 2002, all rights reserved, international copyright secured
Anyone wishing
to use excerpts from this interview, permission must be acquired from
Dorn Publications, Inc. to do so. For permission email permissiontouse.
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